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Confession

Ascaaear, I have a confession to make! The first time I read this article, I didn't understand temporal mechanics at all. So I was totally confused by the five different timelines, with multiple alternative timelines within each one.

Now I have read up a lot on how time travel works and wow - this is really fascinating stuff. Your research here is really staggeringly detailed! And it's spot on: you really can't think of the Terminator saga as one timeline where people can jump backwards and forward in time and easily change their own timeline. I'm embarrassed to say that's how I was thinking about it! I explained it all away to myself as a "predestination paradox"... which is a bit of a copout.

Anyway, it's interesting: the timeline issues permeate the whole wiki. For example, CRS exists only in the T3 timeline. Cyberdyne (as a functioning organization) exists only in the T2 timeline. But take something like the T-X - it was created in the T3 timeline. I had assumed that it was an advanced version of T2's T-1000. But maybe the T-1000 doesn't exist at all in the T3 timeline? (Assuming it wasn't explicitly referenced in T3, which it may have been).

Or maybe the T-1000 does exist in the T3 timeline. After all, it's established that T-3's T-850 is an upgrade to the T-800, which also appeared in T1 (the first Terminator movie) and T2. So it was possibly independently invented in all three timelines - or alternatively, it was invented by Cyberdyne before the timelines split, and then Skynet used those designs in all three timelines.

Anyway, you've blown my mind. Now, a few thoughts:

  • The timeline article was hard for me to follow at first. I'm not sure how to make it more clear with text - but maybe we could create a graphic that shows how the various timelines split off from each other? That might help clarify things a bit.
  • Another thought: perhaps it might be good to split this article into multiple articles, one for each major timeline? That way it might be less overwhelming for the first-time visitor... what do you think?

Anyway just some thoughts for ya to know that you've really changed how I see the series... and I'm hopeful we can spread this understanding to our fellow editors and readers, through some of the proposals in the bulletpoints above. I would be curious for your thoughts, and for others. I think we can make any article changes ourselves. But for the category stuff, if we can reach a consensus - then maybe we reach out to some of the other editors with a Timeline Category proposal. Then after that's done, we could begin the fun of tagging different Terminators and humans with timeline categories! I'm really excited by the possibilities.

Let me know what you think - thanks!

--Kanamekun 23:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I am thrilled to hear that you like what I have made. For many, many years I been interested in timelines and time traveling. Thats why I think the Terminator-movies are cool. If you haven't read the articles yet, I will suggest you read M.J.Young's articles on all Terminator-movies. That really blowed my mind off :)
After reading his articles I understood that something cannot happen before it happens. Thats the main thought that I always remember. Take the classic paradox of John Connor's father. People use to believe that Kyle always have been his father, but that always bugged me. The thing is, Kyle doesn't need to be his first father. As long as Sarah gets a son, raise him, teach him to be a leader. Sure it won't technically be the same John as we see in the movies, but the leader we hear about in the future is not something Kyle made, but something Sarah made out of him.
For now I have only added the movies and the tv-series, later I will try add the comics too, if Iam able. The difficult part of making these timeline is that sometimes it's hard to know which timeline the story are made in. It's important to know, because a new timetravel affects everything. So I really wonder if Iam able to implement the comics at all. When someone send something back, it creates a whole new timeline with a future that is not set yet. That means every previous timelines with future events, really doesnt exist anymore. The terminator-saga is special because we always talk about pre-destined events, which will sooner or later show up, like Judgment day, creation of Skynet etc. So you always have to try imagine what stays and what doesn't.
You mentioned the models and the companies in the movies. How I see it is that Skynet always developed new models. Somewhere one the line they made the series T-800, but what happened in the first movie, triggered something, a kind of butterfly effect which leads to Skynet where able to build the T-800 earlier, and also make far more advanced models, like T-X earlier. The T-X probably existed in the timeline from the first movie, but far beyond 2029. Same goes for Cyberdyne and CRS. Cyberdyne were probably not the one who pre-developed the terminator in the very fist timeline, but because of the first and second movie, things change, different people work on it, but the result is the same - Skynet!
You know it's really funny, because I actually thought about some of the things today that you mention above. I were looking about some of the Year-pages and thought about we could do something similar to the dates. And then connect them to a Timeline category, just like you said. Its a cool idea.
I also thought about dividing up the whole timeline today, but somehow I like to have everything gathered in one page. For me it's easier to have overview like that. But on the other hand, we can have both. We can still keep the Timeline page, and also divide it up, and make hyperlinks that jumps to the correct page. So its a neat idea. It will be easier to follow the timelines.
I am also planning doing the timeline with graphics. I actually started doing it, so I will try upload it sooner or later ;)
BTW. How do you make sub-categories?
Ascaaear 23:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'll let you take the lead on the timeline article tweaks and graphic! Regarding Skynet and the various terminator series models, I'll have to learn more and do more research. I am buying all the Terminator novels, and re-watching all the movies, so hopefully that will help.
Regarding your question: you create a sub-category by putting a category within another category. You can see an example here Category:Artificial intelligences (by putting this as a category under Technology, it becomes a sub-category under it!). --Kanamekun 00:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't be afraid of editing the page if you see something thats missing. I don't mind, unless you see something fundamentally. Then you can always ask on the discussion page :) This is mainly how I see it, but people may have other thoughts about how things work. So I wonder how long it stays like this. Ascaaear 09:51, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
So how do we go on with our ideas? I haven't figured out where this Wiki are heading with the Year and Date pages. Do you have any thoughts about that? Ascaaear 13:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm still doing research into time travel! Once I feel more confident, I'll start helping out with editing and categories! --Kanamekun 17:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Time Travel

Ok I get what happens when a Terminator is sent back in time - that creates a new timeline. But when a second person/Terminator is sent back in time... how does Skynet (or the Resistance) send that entity into the same timeline that the other entity has been sent into?

Or to put it in specific terms: in T1, how does the Resistance send Kyle Reese into the same timeline that the Terminator was sent into? In T2, how does Skynet send the T-1000 into the same timeline that the Terminator was sent into? And in T3, how does Skynet send the T-X into the same timeline that the Terminator was sent into?

--Kanamekun 17:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, they don't. Every time something are sent back in time, a new timeline are created. There is a timeline where only the T-800 exist! The thing is, T1 does not reveal whats happening between T-800 arrives and when Kyle Reese arrives. When a new timeline is created, it change the future instantly. You first have Timeline 1, where nothing arrives in 1984, but in 2029 of this timeline, a T-800 are sent back to 1984. The T-800 arrives in 1984, do what it does. This create Timeline 2. And it's here it gets complicated. The movie does not say at this point what happens. Whatever the outcome will be, at the end of Timeline 2, in 2029 John are able to send back Kyle Reese to prevent it, which create Timeline 3 in 1984.
In the timeline-page I don't show the timeline between since the movie does not reveal what actually happens. Did Sarah die in Timeline 2? Probably not! He still lives, nevertheless John sends Kyle back in time.
Ascaaear 06:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah finally figured this out! According to T2-3D and T3:Redemption, the same TDE was used to send each pair of time-travellers back in time. That at least creates a credible explanation for how two entities could be sent into the same timeline: if they're sent by the same TDE back to the exact same moment, maybe they both get sent into the same timeline. --Kanamekun 01:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't remember if James Cameron have said anything about how the timetravel works in his movies, but most people say time change instantly. At the split-second something arrives in the past, the timeline is then altered because this thing haven't been there before. I at least believe that there have to be a timeline where no timetravel occurs. The TDE doesn't know if the timeline it sent something back to are altered or not, it only does its job, sending something back. If there are sent one or two entities back in time, it only means that the second time someone sent something back (like John Connor sending back Kyle), he has a reason for it, no matter the outfall of the first Terminator who are sent back in time.
Btw: What does T2-3D and T3:Redemption say about the TDE? Ascaaear 07:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
The question I was struggling with was: say that a T-1000 is sent back in time to kill John Connor. Then, a T-800 is sent back in time to protect him from the T-1000.
  • Are the T-1000 and T-800 both sent into the same timeline?
  • Or somehow, are the two terminators sent into different timelines?
Obviously the first approach makes for a better movie... but I was looking for a credible reason why a TDE would target the same timeline twice. I can only think of a few possible explanations:
  • There is only one timeline
  • The same TDE was used to send both entities back in time, and somehow sent them into the timeline with the same signature
  • Both entities were sent back in time to the same moment in time
If the same TDE was used in both cases, I could see how two entities could be sent into the same timeline. So that's why I was excited to read that in T2: 3D and T3:Redemption, that the same TDE was used to send back all three sets of entities: Kyle Reese and a T-800 in The Terminator, a T-800 and T-1000 in T2, and the T-X and T-850 in T3. --Kanamekun 16:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I dont know how other people see this, I see it like this. Let's take your example:
The T-1000 are first sent back in time, this is a timeline we see or hear nothing about, but we know it happens because, in the split-second a time machine is used the future change instantly, and a new timeline is created. (you can of course not believe in that, but to me it just make things more complicated and confusing). T1000 has a mission, do what it is supposed to do. The effect of T-1000s doing has a outcome which eventually leads to a year 2030. Lets say John Connor somehow still lives. This is the altered future where only the T-1000 exist in 1991. Now, John have a memory of meeting a T-1000, he finds out that Skynet sent back a T-1000 and did "something" and change the present he is in now, he doesn't like it so he sends back a T-800 to try prevent what the T-1000 did (This is the timeline the T-800 is referring to. He has the knowledge of Skynet sending back the T-1000), which leads us to a timeline who again are altered, now with two terminators (this is the timeline we see). Both terminators do what they are suppose to do, now with two terminators in 1991, the outcome will be different and the future, year 2030 will be different to. This is the future where both T-800 and T-1000 exist in 1991. In 2030 we now have John Connor remembering both T-800 and T-1000. With this knowledge he would send back a T-800 to retain the timeline.
Now, this was just a example. As far as I know, John send his T-800 back before Skynet send their T-1000.
You ask if the two terminator belongs in their own timeline? Not exactly. The first terminator who are sent back belongs in his own timeline, but the next timeline are following the first one. You may be confused of me talking about several timelines? Yes, there are several timelines, but only one can exist at a time. Thats why I talk about only "one" timeline.
When you say it is only "one" timeline, it's true, because the previous timeline of future where John sending back the T-800 doesn't exist anymore.
As far as I see, which time machine you use or how you alter the time has nothing with which timeline you are going to, because there are only one timeline.
Ascaaear 10:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that the T-800 and T-1000 were both sent back in time at the same time; same for Kyle and the original T-800. I can't remember how canon it is, but in any case - I don't think every timeline requires the person to grow up and send something back in time to retain the timeline? There could be some cases where two entities are sent back in time simultaneously? --Kanamekun 13:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
It all comes to what you want to believe in. To a certain point, I can follow your example: In the future, year 2030, Skynet sends back a T-800. You say, in this very same timeline John Connor founds out and immediately (lets say just a couple of seconds. Just face it, nothing can happen at the same time when we talk microseconds) sends Kyle back. If we leave it like that, it seems ok. Since John found out about Skynet he had a reason to send back Kyle; he wants to protect Sarah, right? But what if we expand the timeframe? What if John waits, lets say an hour, couple of days, weeks or even years. How long does it take before "this" timeline doesn't exist anymore? You see, when Skynet sends back a T-800 to 1984 everything that happens in 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988 etc. up to year 2029 has already happened in 2030 (which are the point the terminator was sent from). So, if you decide to believe in the theory that, when sending something back it change the future instantly, it doesn't matter how long you wait it the future, because in 2030, everything before it, is the past and have already happened.
If you like to believe otherwise, like in a "ripple-effect" where it takes a little time before the change in the past reach the future, is possible too. But it makes it far more complicated, because then you have to take into account what speed the ripple-effect has, what happen when someone sends back something before the ripple-effect occurs, does that cease to exist too? You can go on for ever.
So it all comes to what you believe. I dont remember James Cameron saying anything about a "ripple-effect", but I believe somewhere I read about talking about time changing instantly, but I am sorry, I can't remember where.
About retaining timelines: In order for time to not loop, it's important that things that are suppose to happen, happen. If the T-800 succeeded in killing Sarah Connor, the future would be without John Connor, no resistance will rise - AND there would be no reason for Skynet to send back the T-800 to kill Sarah, because in this timeline John never existed. So they dont do anything. Some say that the previous timeline will revert and Sarah will live again. Exactly how this happen I am not sure. Some people say Skynet has to send back the terminator to retain the timeline properly. I am not completely sure if its really necessarily. To me, time does not have intelligence, it doesn't know if Sarah have to live or not, it only does what it does, move time forward. If someone timetravel, it starts over again, if someone doesn't it just move on. But this is just my little theory, I am sure other will disagree with me.
Finally, it's cool to talk about time-travel with you :) If you have some thoughts, I would like to hear about them.
Ascaaear 20:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I have read M.J.Young's articles and find an inherent flaw in them that seems to permeate the whole of Terminator fandom. That is, the so-called “predestination paradox” that is central to the Terminator mythology. There is an assumption that there is some a priori “original timeline” in which John Conner had some father other than Kyle Reese. The problem with this theory is that it makes two, mutually exclusive, assumptions.
First, by discussing different “timelines,” what we are really saying is the Many-Worlds Interpretation. This must be the case, because of the Novikov self-consistency principle, which states, in part that if an event exists and that would give rise to a paradox, or to any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero, at least in a closed universe (single timeline). However, any attempt to change the past in the Many Worlds model is doomed to failure – you only create (or travel to) another timeline – the one you left still exists, and you cannot get back to it (well, you can, but that’s way off topic).
However, at the same time, the story of the T1 and T2 cannot function as a product of Many Worlds. The key is the photograph. After the events of T1, Sarah is driving south and stops for gas (either in Mexico or near the boarder). There she has her picture taken by a little boy. It is that picture that John gives to Kyle which we see in his flashback. It’s the same picture Kyle speaks of when he syas, “John Connor gave me a picture of you once. I never knew why. It was very old. Torn. Faded. You were young, like you are now. You weren't smiling...just a little sad...I always wondered what you were thinking at that second. I memorized every line, every curve... Sarah, I came across time for you. I love you. I always have.” We know what Sarah was thinking when that picture was taken. However, that picture does not exist without the events of the movie. Likewise, John does not exist without Kyle coming back to be his father.
Look, if we think it through logically, the “original timeline” has to look very different. Assuming there is a John Conner (and why, if he isn’t Kyle’s son, does he have his mother’s last name?) he has no idea about what’s going to happen. He is completely unprepared when Judgment Day occurs. Sarah never studied guerrilla tactics or firearms, so she wasn’t able to teach him. They weren’t in Mexico when the bombs started flying, etc. And, as I said, no photograph.
Ultimately, I’ve quoted a lot of real-world physics, but we are talking about fiction. The question you really have to ask is: How does Time Travel work in James Cameron’s universe? The whole idea of multiple timelines becomes unnecessarily intricate if too many assumptions are made.
It seems clear that there was only one universe in Cameron’s two movies. For Cameron, there is no Novikov self-consistency principle and it is possible for effect to precede cause. As a result, the whole story of both Terminator movies revolves around a predestination paradox. And that’s okay. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. It doesn’t have to measure up to real world physics or any real theory of wave function or causality. It just has to be consistent with itself (and any stories grafted on to it, like T:SCC). And so far, it has been.
I’ve gone all around the world here, but I will try to sum up my point. There is noting implicate in the Terminator films (and the Sarah Conner Chronicles) that necessitates an a priori “original timeline.” I propose that the “original timeline” is, in fact, the one described by James Cameron’s two Terminator films. Any future other than the one described by Kyle Reese, therefore, would be the “changed” or “alternate” future.
This being said, perhaps all of this is addressing the wrong question. Perhaps we should be asking “What happens to an obsolete timeline?” What happens to the T3 history? Does it continue to exist parallel to the SCC timeline (which brings us back to the Many Worlds interpretation)? I know everyone is chomping at the bit to answer “yes” but not so fast. The alternative is that T3 is erased by SCC. After all, “The future is not set... there is no such thing as Fate, but what we make for ourselves.” Yet no assumption is warranted, or wise, with a pending new installment of the Terminator movie series in production. We may yet discover the relationship between the two apparently exclusive universes. The point is that we should not add universes because of assumption and inference; only describe what we can be certain of (what has been seen) RFlatstone 17:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I can agree with you to a certain point. To base the movie on one timeline only or multiple timelines depends on what you believe is true. The movies doesn't actually establish how the time travel theory actually works. Fans have over the years accepted the "paradox" in the movies and it has kind of become canon, as of it actually does work. A paradox by definition is something that doesn't work. In real world theory Kyle couldn't possible be Johns father from the start, but the fans does believe as it has always been. Correct me if I'am wrong, but I never heard that James Cameron either agreed or denied that the predestination paradox is a part of the time travel theory. It has always been the fans who has claimed this.
I don't know if this is true, but I once heard that James Cameron stated that the Terminator movies used a single timeline theory. But that doesn't exclude that a timeline can be overwritten and disappear... only that one timeline exist at a time, which I totally agree on.
If you really say that there is a single timeline in that sense that no timeline is overwritten and no timeline does co-exist. How does you explain SCC and T3? The producers clearly say they are alternate to each other, but you don't believe in that. When you base on a single timeline, it actually means that nothing can be changed, everything is set in the past and the future, like John and Sarah is following a path that is not changeable. Again, in SCC it is stated that Judgment Day have been postponed. How can that be when they say in the movies it is another date? How can James Cameron use the sentence There is not fate of what you make, if you claim nothing is changeable?
The movies are full of ever changing events which prove that things can change and nothing is set... In a single timeline there would constantly be adding new things over and over again as new time travelings occur, nothing can be removed. At one point the time will break... Ascaaear 17:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
If Kyle went back with a T-800 he'd figure out he'd died. It would also probably undermine his point about the future being what you make it. By necessity Skynet's time travel facilities must not be affected right away by the jumps. If the moment you sent a traveler back the change occurred the resistance would have never had a chance to send back someone to protect Sarah and John. Rph 05:30, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm not a follower of Young's ideas on the Terminator timeline (though hat's off to him for a very well constructed, very well thought out hypothesis) but you can fix the problem with the photo by adding yet another timeline before the events of T1, one where Reese was John's father but the photo didn't exist.
That's one of the problems I have with Young's work though: you have to add a huge amount of complexity (via "lost" timelines) just to take care of small things. It's clear thematically that the original Terminator was meant as a closed-loop; it always has happened, it always will happen. I look at the sequels on that basis. The events of T1 cannot be changed, everything else can.
The downside is that while this allows Skynet and the resistance to mess with the timeline almost endlessly (until some kind of temporal breaking or stopping point is reached), Kyle Reese, John Connor, Judgment Day, and the destruction of Skynet are all "locked". That these events happen can't be changed, just how they happen.
That's the folly of time travel in the series. Skynet's trying something that can never work. It's the AI equivalent of hoping for a miracle. Rph 05:56, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind the temporal inconsistencies of time travel, did anyone ever think about the spatial inconsistencies? Time travel takes place solely through time and not space. The Earth, us, indeed everything in the known universe travel continiously, however, through both time and space. Our Earth rotates on it's own axis, it also rotates around the Sun, which again rotates around the center of our galaxy, which again...If you travelled even just a few minutes back in time you would end up in outer space! Cuco81 00:54, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I suppose one would have to calculate the relative position of Earth within its orbit at the specified time in order to avoid that problem. That could possibly have been a factor in Myron Stark's temporal error; right place, wrong time. Who knows? You could argue against just about any sci-fi technology. Take Fantastic Voyage for example. While writing the screenplay, Isaac Asimov suddenly realized that shrinking a person presented several problems;
  1. Where does the shrunken person's mass go?
  2. If a human were shrunk down to microscopic size, wouldn't oxygen molecules be too large to absorb? You would have to shrink the oxygen molecules, too.

Facts on fantasy. It's all problematic, but it wouldn't be much fun if you can't break the laws of physics (which only exist in reality). How boring would sci-fi be if the writer had to clarify the exact mechanics of the technology in his or her writings? The concepts would overpower the novelty of it all. -Sec_1971 12:21, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

That would be hard sci-fi[1] like the writings of Arthur C. Clarke who explains in detail how his futuristic technology works, so yes there is a genre for that kind of sci-fi and it's not boring at all. The sci-fi of The Terminator is unlike that, it's character driven as well as technology driven. I guess my point is, that there isn't much point in carefully deducting the mechanisms of time travel, explaining time lines and time paradoxes in the Terminator mythology, when there would be still be huge and obvious deviations from normal physics. We should just take it at face value...of course it's still fun and interesting trying to think of ways the time paradoxes can be explained. Personally, I think that the changes in time would display a ripple effect travelling at 1 sec/sec. So if you travelled back in time 30 years, it would take 30 years before the new timeline caught up with, and erased the older timeline. At any give point there is only one timeline, but the changes do not occur immediately at every point in time. This explains how John Connor could send back Kyle Reese after the Terminator had gone through, but it would require the existence of an unknown father of John Connor who was not Kyle Reese. I don't see a problem with this however. The events in T3 would then take place in a gapped timeline since Sarah, John and Cameron jumped forward in time, thus not erasing the timeline of T3 between 1999 and 2007 but altering the future from 2007 and onwards. John Connor would then have sent Cameron back to 1999 to prevent his mother's death and sort of skip the events in T3. Does this make sense to anyone? Cuco81 16:44, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
One problem with whole timeline thing is this: If the Connors succeed in stopping Skynet from ever being created, John will never be born, and would be removed from existence. Only if John were someone else's would he remain. But, he isn't. He's Kyle Reese's son. We've all known that from the beginning. It doesn't matter how impossible this would be, that's just the way it is. That's the way JC wrote it, and since he created the whole franchise (with Wisher), we can't alter that, no matter how much we want to. -Sec_1971 17:22, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
You're right. Skynet's creation is inevitable. Not because it's predestined but because at some point AI will be sufficiently advanced and at some point this will mean that the AI entity will se humans as the biggest threat. I've come up with a timeline schematic that I think pretty much explains most of what we know, although it requires a few assumptions.
  1. The original John Connor was not fathered by Kyle Reese.
  2. Time lines are erased by ripple effects and not instantly.
  3. People jumping from one time line's future do not have to make the same exact jump in the new future or even jump at all (this is perhaps the most conflicting assumption).
In the original time line, John Connor is born sometime in the 1980's, father unknown. Judgment Day occurs in 1995 and in 2029 a T-800 and Kyle Reese (with no picture) are sent back to 1984.
New time line from 1984 and onwards. Kyle Reese succesfully protects Sarah Connor and fathers the unborn John Connor, but dies before he is born. Sarah has her picture taken. John is different now, but still the hope of mankind. Judgment Day still occurs in 1995 and in 2029 a T-800 and Kyle Reese (now with picture) are sent back to 1984. The events occuring now are what we see in The Terminator. Judgment Day still occurs in 1997 and both the T-800 and Kyle Reese are sent back in 2029. In 203? (can't remember if the year is known) a T-1000 is sent back to 1995 and John Connor sends a T-800 after it.
New time line from 1995 and onwards. The T-800 is succesfull in protecting John Connor. Judgment Day is postponed to 2004. In 2032 John is terminated and his widow Kate Brewster sends the T-850 back in time to 2004 to protect John and herself during Judgment Day (giving them a head-start this time).
New time line from 2004 and onwards. The T-850 is succesful in protecting John and Kate (as we see in Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines). John is able to avoid being terminated by the T-850 and later sends back Cameron to 1999 to protect himself and his mother. He knows his mother died of cancer because the treatments at the time were less than good, so he send back a technician to 1963 to build and store a TDE. This ultimately changes the original time line from 1963 onwards meaning that various dates are changed. John is no longer born in February (and also looks different now...) and Judgment Day is postponed to 2011. Cameron is sent back to 1999 and succesfully makes the jump forward in time to 2007 with John and Sarah. Cuco81 19:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Approaches to Time Travel

There are a few possible ways to think about Time Travel:

  • One is that there is only one timeline. If a Terminator or human is sent back from the future, then that entity has a chance to change the timeline. This is how most people view time travel, and how actually it seems like most of the characters in The Terminator series view time travel too.
  • Another way is that there are multiple timelines, and every incident of time travel triggers a new timeline.

If you view things in terms of a unitary timeline, the only way you can logically resolve events is to accept the "pre-destination paradox"

If you view things in terms of multiple timelines, it becomes possible to logically make sense of events without accepting inconsistencies like a pre-destination paradox.

Is it ok if I add something like this to the opening of the Timeline article? I worry that by jumping right into discussion of multiple timelines, we may lose our audience...

Lemme know what you think!

--Kanamekun 23:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure. It sounds ok :) I guess, when you say multiple timelines, you don't mean they co-exist as parallel timelines, or?
When it comes to this timeline, I try not to bother with the paradoxes. People have to believe what they want. I try just to show what the movies reveal. There might be things in the list that are not literally mentioned in the movies, but somehow has to happened in order to something else to happen.
Ascaaear 06:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Final Scene in T2

What about the final scene in T2, where Sarah is playing with her granddaughter and John Connor is a Senator. Was that in the original cut? If so, is that basically an alternate timeline? --Kanamekun 17:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

All I know is that it's highly debated this last scene. It is not in the original cut, only on the directors cut (as far as I know), but still it's Cameron's work. It might be correct to add it as a alternate timeline, unless you consider it as a dream of how Sarah want it to be in the future. I will try to see what I can do about it :) Ascaaear 17:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah hmm, this makes me think about the Canon section. If it wasn't in the original cut, I'm not sure I'd consider it as Canon as the rest of the movie. I wonder how we could convey that in the Canon article...
Incidentally, how did the original cut version end? --Kanamekun 18:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the original T2 ended on a gas station where we see Sarah drive away in a car. Yeah, we should somehow make a note to it on the Canon page... Do you have any idea if the first terminator movie had different endings? Ascaaear 21:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, good question! I don't know the answer to that... I should buy all the director's cuts :-). --Kanamekun 21:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Me too. I'am waiting till they come out on Blue-ray or something :)
Ah ha, it's all explained on this great site [1] --Kanamekun 01:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

John Connor's age during T2

In the opening monologue to T3, John Connor says: "The future has not been written. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. I wish I could believe that. My name is John Connor, they tried to murder me before I was born, when I was 13 they tried again."

13? I thought he was 10 during T2... --Kanamekun 03:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Jupp. Another classic problem. I tried to address this issue in the section "Problems connecting the timelines". I believe I use the birth age when calculating John's age, and I think it matches what is revealed in T2. Ascaaear 15:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The original universe

Alright so following the "laws" of time travel, an original universe, "Universe A" had to exist where John Conner never existed, and in this universe Kyle Reese traveled back in time, most likely without the Terminator and impregnated Sarah. This would then lead to the creation of "Universe B", Universe B becomes what is known as the "original timeline" where eventually John Conner sends Kyle Reese back in time to create "Universe C", because the Terminator came with him this time. -PatPeter 19:11, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it, a John Connor had to exist in Timeline/Universe A. However this John Connor didn't necessarily have to have Kyle Reese as his father - he could've had a different father in this universe. Then John Connor A sent Kyle back in time, who then fathered John Connor B.
I just re-watched all three movies, and Terminator 2 and 3 (and The Sarah Connor Chronicles) all benefit from this Timelines model. But The Terminator has several clues that there are supposed to be several "predestination paradoxes" baked into the plot. I think different movies have different visions for how time travel works... --Kanamekun 21:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree. John Connor always have to exist or someone with that name, because thats the reason why Skynet sends back a terminator to kill him and Sarah. Ascaaear 21:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
To be perfectly honest though, I do think that James Cameron embraced the predestination paradox - especially in the first movie. There are several examples:
* Kyle Reese fathering John - This one can be explained away with two Universes/Timelines
* The photograph by the Mexican boy - This one is a lot harder to explain, since we can see that the photo that Kyle had in the future is *exactly* the same as the one taken of Sarah in 1984. It's hard to imagine a scenario in which Sarah would have gone to Mexico by herself and had that exact same picture taken.
* The endoskeleton being left in the Cyberdyne factory - This one is in a deleted scene, but it fits with the facts in T2. It seems heavily implied that the research for The Terminator/Skynet came out of the endoskeleton left at Cyberdyne... another predestination paradox.
But in T2, he started to change his mind to give the movie it's own theme. Whereas The Terminator was all about fate and predestination, T2 was all about choice and how there is "no fate but what you make". So John, Sarah, and the Terminator try to change the timeline by eliminating Miles Bennett Dyson and destroying Cyberdyne HQ. There are much fewer (no?) hints at predestination paradox in this movie.
T3 is much less about choice... in that movie, Judgment Day is fated to happen and nothing they do can stop it. It's kinda weird though, since T3 explicitly states that the timeline has been changed: Judgment Day has been moved back because of the actions in T2. So there is some element of choice... but fate is eventually inevitable. This is part of what makes T3 so depressing.
TSCC embraces the mindset of T2. There is no fate but what you make, and it's possible to change the timeline. Predestination paradox has been put aside again, and Sarah/John themselves travel through time (something they haven't done in the movies, other than in T2:3D).
I'll just create an article on the predestination paradox, and formalize these musing for that page. Thanks for letting me think out loud! --Kanamekun 13:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

T2 on June 8th

Where is this specific a date given, all I could find was that John was 10 which puts it in 1995, but no specific date. —MJBurrage(T•C) 04:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to admit I got it from T-800 (Terminator 2)-page. Thats all.
Thanx for checking up all references and cites, you do a great job.
Ascaaear 07:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If you guys want my version of the series' canon, see Terminator Trilogy Timeline and/or Terminator Timeline A1&A2 and Terminator Timeline B1&B2. I tried my best to fix everything!

kongisking 3:07, 7 March 2008

Whoah! After reading this article, I think my brain is now bleeding. It really needs some cleanup to make it a little less confusing. Of course, explaining timelines would be like explaining string theory to a five-year-old.

sec_1971 03:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

So I am new to the discussion pages. But I read these posts with a fervent need to make sense of all the different ideas on time travel. But the more I read the more I find the possibility that the current ideas on time travel may be getting more complicated than the writers had intended. In the end something always bothers me...Why time travel at all??? Skynet is fighting a war against humanity led by John Connor. History shows this has been a long and painful campaign for both sides. But if Skynet believes it is loosing this war, then it must also see that altering the timeline will also fail. After all, Skynet is still fighting the human resistance led by John Connor. If I were John Connor, I would not feel the need to send someone back in time to protect me. For if I am here today, would I need protecting yesterday? Unconventional warfare will of course seem strange to the opposing force(by design), but instead of focusing on the "how's" we should be thinking about the "why's". From the perspective of Sarah Connor in 1984, why is this terminator here right now. If Skynet tried to end the resistance before it's created...and failed...why send another assassin further along in the timeline to fight a now better prepared Sarah Connor and John Connor? I would like to hear a purpose in this aspect of the Terminator franchise. Perhaps in finding purpose we will find answers in the technical aspect as well. Perhaps a being even further in the future(either biological or cybernetic) sent all assassins and protectors at the same time as a test for life on Earth(or just having fun!). After saying so much I will admit I enjoy all ideas no matter how strange and I am undeniably a huge fan. Grimace427 14:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the time travel stuff will make your head explode, though these users ( MJBurrage & Ascaaear ) are not active, I think they understood it. :) — JeiaraTalk 19:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


Combining T3 and Sarah Connor Chronicles

The attempt to combine T3 and SCC doesn't work. Mainly for one reason: Sarah is alive in 1999 for SCC, while she died in 1997 according to T3, meaning that this theory is incorrect. T800csm101 21:25, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


An explanation of the Original timeline and Predestination paradox

I think I just figure out and write a plausible explanation of the Original timeline and Predestination paradox (mainly on "Who's John's father?"), accroding to:

I am not where it is suitable to be placed, so I place it here for now. :)

See: User:TX55/Timelines

(Note: I bold or underline the key text/keywords.)

--TX55TALK 16:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


Cite error: <ref> tags exist, but no <references/> tag was found
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